Terror @ Taj Palace and Oberoi Trident - India

India was a flourishing nation before the British came.
British ruined most of the world, if left the way they were, India would have had a lot of self-culture, architecture, money, governance, stability, heart, kindness, native art, nativity and what not. British were the prime culprits who ruined the world on all directions. - don't freakin talk about the British to take over! My ***

------------

That apart, and anger apart:

NY Brox is like that, and the whole world has places like that, it's not that people ignore, people want to be ignored for a long term goal and gain to be achieved over a period of time. - gov. funds, tax-payers money.

- The gov. or the corporation is not efficient here, they do not let the money out of the budget to do the job right. So every place was like this before, let alone the Egmore slums, but every street had a open garbage, which was never picked up by the government as long as I know.

But like u said it was self initiative by the people over the period of time, people were educated, people read more, people saw more on media, there was more of media to see (unlike only gov. relayed TV), so the change was enabled.

People put their own garbage tanks on street corners. Then arranged a contract operator to collect it, and give it to the gov. and then the gov. acted upon such a initiative. Now over a period of time it has become a routine, and the gov. adopted the idea, and has contracted vehicles to collect garbage.

So the lesson is, you have to take the initiative. You clean your own ***, and not expect one to come over and do it for you. I have watched even dogs wipe their own ***, and not expect some one with 6 senses to do it. People will learn on their own, what people do is for their good, what they do may be limited to what they get, but they do good with what ever limited resources they have and it is for their own good.

People [humans] do not want a angel [liek frosty] to come to tell them what is good and what is not, they learn by experience, who ever chooses to be what they are is how they choose and what they choose and they are sole responsible for that. So let us not poke our little finger at them and try to tech them about what is good for them and get our face thrashed.

[I'm serious, NGO's and some social activist women try to engage in CHANGing these people of the slum, and get their face thrashed.]

People here have their own rules, their own set of protocols that we are not supposed to understand or pity them, they tell people they like the way they live. You visiting this place like a migratory bird once, and seeing the plight and crowing is not going to help you nor them, you ain't gonna understand no nothing!

I live with them, I have deep rooted touch with them, I know them better, I have friends with whom I have studied a few years of my life, and I drink tea and eat with them, I know them better to comment, they know they are pests and they want it to be that way!

- legal or illegal do not count here

- it is the theory of nature. This cycle has to happen to let the world move on. What is so gore about it I do not understand, you are a faint haerted old guy I guess. What dies has to go, it is the cycle of life, Parsi's in Mumbai and Goa let their dead relatives on top of "cremation towers" for vultures to feed on! how is that?

Vegetables and waste food need to rot, to go into the sand, only then the soil will be good enough for another vegetation! Psst... no use preaching you about the soil, the vegetation and the precious cycle of nature - when you advocate against nature!

- Clean, compared to other metropolitan cities. India is a young nation and still trying to set things right from the debacle created by foreigners a long time ago! It will be a process, and we cannot jump into a new world, clean and tidy like a planned England! or the 200 year old gov. of US.

- I was not witness to this, I cannot comment, It had a lot of political mileage, nothing was transparent, so NO COMMENTS.

 

I guess the topic is drifting elsewhere!
I wont comment any further, just updates!
Will try hard to keep my fingers away from responding, or reacting!

Update:
Update:

Pakistan has fallen for pressure.
India set a 48 hour deadline, along with US pressure, and Pakistan has stormed some hideouts of the LeT operatives and have captured the leading man behind the Mumbai 26/11 attacks.

"After the top Lashkar mastermind of the Mumbai terror attacks was arrested in PoK, Pakistan has offered to send a team to India to help with the investigations."

Earlier, the man believed to be the main planner of the Mumbai attacks has reportedly been arrested.

Lashkar-e-Toiba commander Zakiur Rehman Lakhwi was arrested in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Away from the media gaze, the offices of the Jamaat-ud-Dawah, the political front for the Lashkar, were raided in Muzaffarabad in PoK.

But sources say this is the peace formula being pushed by Washington, and its slowly taking shape.

Late on Sunday, the Pakistan security forces, including the army, launched a secretive crackdown on activists of the LeT and its front organisation Jamaat-ud-Dawah in PoK, and across Pakistan. Helicopters were used in the operation in Muzaffarabad.

There was no immediate official word on the crackdown

 

Frosty, It looks like you are it - The colonial master for Thailand...

 

I apologise ,--it appears that you have made no mistakes and it is all some one elses fault

No-- there is nowhere in the world like India --India is unique in that respect.

To squat and **** on the pavement as people pass by is neither legal or human.

Ive lived amongst them too as they fled India by the millions to destroy Bradford, Leeds and Birmingham.

Unfortunately there are not migratory but claim full social security unimaginable from there life in India.

Some are wealthy, owning successfull industries and houses for there never ending list of relatives, but never gain class.

I as a British citizen I contribute to this with tax, I believe I could not buy land in Chennai --- I couldnt but a telephone sim.

I congratulate you in your tunnel vision.

 

It is common to blame former colonialists for present problems, and sometimes it is justified. The Brits get at least their share of that, fair or not. The legitimacy of such arguments should be subjected to the following tests:

a. How long ago did they leave?
b. Did they leave it better than they found it?
c. Is it better or worse or just the same now as then?
d. What have other nations with comparable problems done in the same time?

60 years ago Britain itself was in serious trouble, bereft of its colonies on which it had learned to depend, short of natural resources drained by centuries of almost unbroken wars, most against enemies bent on conquest, and staggering under the after-effects of a huge recent war. I was there at the time: there were food shortages, water shortages, housing shortages, polluted air and water, destroyed or antiquated manufacturing facilities. UK dealt with those; it took far longer to recover than other nations such as Japan and Germany, but it did so, the process was completed decades ago.

The problem is not the foreign colonists of a half-century ago, it's the international companies raping nations' resources, it's the emerging nation next door trying to stab your own nation in the back, it's local leaders selling out their own people for personal gain and power, it's internal divisions looking for revenge for the real or imagined insults of the past, it's gross over-population, it's disregard for the environment and its consequences. And yes, for a tiny minority of nations, it's Nature and location; as well, not instead of.

When I Google India here are the first sentences from the first 3 responses I got:

"India is particularly rich in a variety of natural resources"
"Natural resources: coal (fourth-largest reserves in the world), iron ore, manganese, ... chromite, natural gas, diamonds, petroleum, limestone, arable land ..."
"Population pressures on arable land contribute to the land degradation"

It sounds as though nature has been kind to you. I think it is unreasonable to blame the Brits for present-day lack of sewage and housing.

The early history of India reads a bit like recent Iraqi history:
1. remove the tyrant (Britain, Saddam)
2. rejoicing by all
3. war between opposing factions, mostly of religious nature
4. will Iraq have to be divided into 2 or more eternally antagonistic states like India? Only time will tell.
5. pressure from external enemies

"India was a flourishing nation before the British came" ???
- for shame Millionswords!

In the years before the British occupation India was invaded by Muslims, Mongols, Persians and Afghanis. It was an area of independent kingdoms unified from time to time by powerful foreign invaders. The Portugese and Dutch started the European colonisation. The first English presence was a trading post. The English, Portugese and Dutch, later the French all tried to push each other out and the English won. None of that was to the benefit of the Indian people of course, but there was not really an "Indian people" at the time, just 500 plus states speaking almost as many languages which were often warring between themselves.

Britain was India's last invader, and I sincerely hope there will never be another.

 

add another question to the list of Questions asked above:

e. How big is the country(geographically) and how diverse?

This is a very important aspect for a country to bounce back. To reshape itself, and emerge as a successful nation.
----------

The problem is not the foreign colonists of a half-century ago, it's the international companies raping nations' resources, it's the emerging nation next door trying to stab your own nation in the back, it's local leaders selling out their own people for personal gain and power, it's internal divisions looking for revenge for the real or imagined insults of the past, it's gross over-population,

- I second that, could not agree more.

it's disregard for the environment and its consequences. And yes, for a tiny minority of nations, it's Nature and location; as well, not instead of.


- this is a little tricky to decide. It has to be on factor and fact.
- I should agree the mob is unruly, to the core. Education and gene should be blamed I guess, but it has to evolve over a period of time, and I guess we are seeing the change, slowly.
- Disregard to nature and resources is a forced way of life, it's like the rule of the "survival instinct" killing a animal to eat is the way of life for a lion, it cannot stand and think about it and become vegetarian. It has no time for that. Likewise, these people whom we talk about, who don't have regard to nature - are all the ones who can understand and act accordingly. But, BUT they are running behind the material life and filling their stomach. So the output is, negligence towards nature and it's resources, which is changing too. But I will blame the enforcement for it, there is no strict enforcement here. Again it is a blame game, but fact. When the enforcer does the job right, the community becomes a beautiful place.


It sounds as though nature has been kind to you. I think it is unreasonable to blame the Brits for present-day lack of sewage and housing.

[and in reply to my own post #31 - http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/po...oberoi-trident-india-25152-3.html#post241968]

Well that was an outburst of anger AK, when frosty advocated implicitly that Brits take over India again and every thing would be alright.
I apologize for the outburst.

I never intend to blame the Brits for the present day sewage and lack of housing.

It's hard to stand divided by religion, cast, creed, language and the clear and present problems that we face daily and yet emerge as a nation. It should take it's due course, there is a lot to think about and discuss. But it will be a never ending topic. Guess this should be discussed in a Indian forum where you can have multiple views, I cannot advocate alone, not fair either.

It's so so much diverse here in India, you travel 100 KMs and you will see things differ. The way people talk, the way people cook, the way people marry, the way people eat, the way people think, and the rules and protocols people follow - changes within half-an-hour of travel.

Amongst so much chaos and diversity, goals become difficult to attain, methods become complicated, and diverted.

One cannot derive a reason for what it is now, one can only presume and work on the logic, the factors for the present state of things vary a lot, and the people will tend to stop and think some day, and things will change faster than you can anticipate. So lets hope for the best, and thanks for bringing up this topic Frosty, and one more thing, Brits invading India cannot be argued by me as for the best of Interest for my nation and it was not right from our perspective at any given point of time.

Leaving the puppy in it's mother's lap is better than to pick it up and say I will raise it best. You pick it up for your selfishness and by the way your feeding and rest of the love shown to the pup is all a by product alone!

Likewise, (weather already invaded or not) leaving a nation to be itself, would have been the best at any given point of time. Let it be India or Afganistan or Thailand!

Let them the people do the best for themselves and lets not poke our nose in their birth right!

Brits may have brought a lot of good to our nation, but that cannot be advocated was for the well being of India in the later centuries.

I don't know if India would have been so much industrialized, and educated with "English" language as now with out the Brits. But without them, India could - COULD have formulated it's own way of life, it's own language(s). Today's children would have been learning in their own mother tongue, and not complicate themselves to learn another language first and then learn the subject. They would have learned the subjects in their own language, like Japs and the Chinese, suffered to speak a foreign language called "English" but still well educated and proud. I'm but helpless to attribute today's plight to learn everything in English to the Brits! [it's not easy to change everything from the Laws to Books into other language and change the entire system, though efforts have been going on to bring in native language learning! less successfully].

Weather it is good or bad is a completely different debate!

I will wind up here!

 

Further on Frosty's suggestion that there is an undercurrent of old folk who remember the "colonial days", with more certainty in equitable justice and policing it - - the wish for the return of the "colonial masters" is also expressed in PNG - especially when adverse impacts of political graft, favouritism, and lack of applied law & order are evident at villager level....

millionswords, your reaction is out of context to the implied perception expressed by some older "natives" to visiting expatriates who may have turned a sensitive ear to reminisces of "old times of certainty and regulation" and wishing away minority behaviour or aggressive disruption of all others to make their political point.....

 

Firstly I think that you like typing Millions words.

Indians speak English because it suggests education and class. Even though they may speak their mother language , they do not, not even to each other.

Ive seen Indians struggle to communicate to a waiter who did not speak English but would not talk in Indian, Possibly because I was there.

My Indian foreman (Thomas) in Dubai would stand in the court yard every day waiting for the 9.15 to take off from the nearby airport, with chest out and a tear in his eyes he would salute the British airways flight to London.

 

"It's hard to stand divided by religion, cast, language ..."

So how can we handle the differences between peoples?

In the US the "melting pot" theory was in vogue for a century, in other words, stop being whaterver you were, be an American and nothing else. Canada holds fast to cultural diversity, remain what you were and be a Canadian as well. In the UK for a long time all commonwealth citizens were also UK citizens and hence entitled to live in the UK if they wished.

All of these concepts are noble in intent but rather neglectful of human nature. To the extent that they work, it is partly due to the absence of differences of language at least and to a degree cast also. Canada, US and UK are also aided by a century of gradually increasing indifference to variations of religion except in a few remaining areas such as N. Ireland.

I grew up in the UK. It is a characteristic of children, in my observation, that they will ostracize child that they had been happily playing with if they become aware of a difference. This I know from my own personal experience. When about 10 I played with a Jewish boy without knowing or caring what that signified. I visited his home and was very fond of his mother who was a wizard cook. In the UK today that would have little relevance but 60 years ago it was otherwise. It took a few Jewish "jokes" in the media and from adults to sensitize me to the existence of people with a difference. When the other kids started to avoid me because of my friendship it didn't take me long to make an end it. A child of that age cannot withstand ridicule or simple separation from the mob if he or she has a choice on the matter. In High School I formed a lifelong friendship with a Catholic: barely got raised eyebrows from the older generation and nobody my age gave a damn. Yet later in my college years a thoroughly black friend of mine, a nice, gentle guy and a talented musician, was refused admission to a pub: given the clientele the proprietor was probably wise to do so. Things did later improve in the UK; nearly 20 years later I could be sunning on the beach with a bunch of guys and hear the others rag one of us for not needing a tan before I realized he was what was then referred to as coloured. Just hadn't noticed. However, when I return there more recently I hear a lot of unpleasant comments, it's more fear than anger, aimed at the huge numbers of visibly overseas immigrants.

So a lot can be overcome in another generation. Look what has happened in the US, less than 50 years after protests against forced integration and 40 years since Governor george Wallace ran for US president on a anti-desegregation slate.

Can the rage that results from such events as in Mumbai be overcome? Thus far at least I have not heard of a backlash against Muslims in India that has broken out into violence. However, these things can fester for centuries; the attacks by Serbs on Kosovans was in part relatiation for the treatment of Serbs during the Ottoman invasion about 600 years ago and the 350 years of subjugation that followed.

With 3 strikes against them, religion, caste and language, plus poverty far beyond what the US/Canada/UK have, as Millionswords says, it's going to take a long time. The healing does not even start until a generation or two the shooting stops. Maybe adopting the English language is a first and necessary step, if distasteful; it gets rid of probably the biggest problem; if you can't communicate you can't negotiate a peace.

 

A very nice piece of thoughtful writing. I commend you Ancient Kayaker.
Also, it sure beats reading the arguments of global warming. Stan

 

ancient kayaker - - - - I don't know if it got through as reputation enhancement - - - "Thank you kind Sir for a well put case for moderation & understanding" - - - "on your next post (oops) -masalai-" (put on post 35 by mistake?) - - I do not know how - except the wine and cooked chook (poultry) was mooooorish and I overindulged

rasorinc - - - - Reading a little drivel, (except for Guillermo's posts which are really worthy of a sage and guru), makes for light entertainment for the peons (self and self identified associates)

 

Not one of kayakars best Im afraid, I failed to see the point of the post above. rather a reiteration.

I am a racist, I hate ignorance, thats why I left UK years ago, to live with foreigners and to be able to choose my neighbours. I have been a foreigner and felt the effects of it for a long time.

However I did not move to Thialand with out money, on the contrary. I did not expect Thailand to give me money or a house in which to live, not that they would. I can not buy land with out the use of lawers digging onto loop holes.

I left yorkshire because of the influx of foreigners that were ignorant of the British ways. Apparantly wanting to come to England to start a new life but brought their old one with them lock stock and barrel,--and then some like religion. To be awakend in Yorkshire by the call of the koran yet to be told the bells of the Christian church on a traditional sunday morning is offensive.

Christmas trees are knocked to the floor by Immigrants who are supposedly offended by a little tree with some lights on.

Here in Malaysia right now on the radio as I type christmas advertisments are being aired and I know the Muslim yacht club will have a Christmas buffet as most of the hotels. It is likley as was last year that the giggling Muslim girls from the reception will walk around on Chrstmas day giving out Chrstmas cards.

This is how it should be. The melting pot can work, my wife is Thai.

I hat ignorance and street shitters.

 

Frosty- "where ignorance is bliss, it's folly to be wise," [ ]

Thanks AK, for putting it all in a nice capsule. And yes a common language is certainly the need of the hour and breaks a lot of barriers.
[but my language is dying. I have to be sad about it too... languages that were ancient, such as Greek and Latin.]

I like what Frosty said in the last post, waking to the sound of the Koran, and Muslim girls giggling around to give Christmas cards - Sure is what the world would look like if all the act of terrorism were to be slayed.

The world would be a better place to live, let live!
Give - that is the only way you can stop them the street shitters!

Give in plenty to the needy, part with what you have, part with what is not necessary to you, GIVE.

Do we do it?

 

Oh ,--your not a word twister are you millions of em?

You conveniently attached my disgust at being awoke with the Koran to giggling muslim girls giving out christmas cards.

Don't become too comfortable with you participation here. With tricks like that you will soon be talking to yourself.

It will not be the only one that noticed that.

The number of killed in Mumbai has been inflated and a new head count released.

Myself Im bored and tired of India and Pakistan like two little boys in a school yard taunting and pulling each others pullovers. Finger pointing and proportioning blame. Exagerating events trying to get the other into trouble.

In this part of the world the mentality of Indians and Pakistanis is mob like to which rumour flames quickly.

 

Update:

Pakistan not to hand over citizen to India.

Ajmal Amir kasab's father admits that Ajam is his son, he has identified his son from the photographs, and the data he has provided matches with the info told by Ajmal to interrogators.

A 7 month pregnant lady was hit by the bullets sprayed in CST Station by the arrested terrorist. She has a bullet lodged in her head, she seems to be stable, and the baby seems to be in good shape. Her husband who was badly injured is critically wounded is in the hospital, they were supposed to have gone out of Mumbai to their home town in UP.

Another tragedy, a woman who was supposed to have come to Chennai for her marriage was hit on the head, and wounded, but she was alive at the hospital, she managed to come to Chennai, with a shaven head and married the man of her life.