Multiple headsail, "mainless" sailplan

[brian eiland]

You can have a look at Daniele Vitali design, it is for a monohull but same idea :
Addio randa e albero. Ecco l’armo a doppio fiocco rollabile. Genio o follia? http://www.giornaledellavela.com/news/2017/08/31/armo-doppio-fiocco-rollabile-genio-follia/

Don't know how I missed this posting??

How do I get it to read in English?

Contents need to be linked over the AFTMAST discussions, and the WISHBONE MAST discussions

 

[brian eiland]

@massandspace
the OP of this subject thread

I see he left the forums around 2022. I wonder if he got discouraged by the number of 'unimaginative postings' on this subject thread,...and some just plain uninformed. I have debated with a number of these old school guys over on the aftmast subject thread,...they can't see beyond the traditional marconi fractional rig

as you said in one of your postings,..
I totally disagree with the idea that the main is not a big deal to set. I can roll and/or unroll a jib in a few seconds. If the wind increases, it takes me about 10 seconds to reef the jib a bit....all from the comfort of the cockpit. Yes, to tack with such a system I propose would probably entail rolling the jib each time....but again, I can do this very quickly and I am not racing the boat....

Reef the main? Struggle to get to the mast base area, ease the boom vang, set topping lift, go back to cockpit to unlock the clutch holding main halyard, go back to mast to wrestle the main down a bit, cleat the reef grommet to the downhaul line, use outhaul to stretch out foot, go around and sail tie the loose foot up, go back to cockpit to add tension to the luff, add downhaul tension, adjust traveler, sheet in....probably forgot a few steps as well, and the coffee has either spilled or gotten cold so go below to make more. I think if this description were false people would not spend tens of thousands of dollars adding new-style boom rolling systems for the main...and I see more and more of them out there.

 

[gonzo]

The Marconi rig has a lot of advantages. Triangular sails are simple. Even that wishbone mast uses triangular jibs. I always have all the lines at the mast because I mainly sail solo. Having halyards going to the cockpit is stupid for solo. Also, there is no need to adjust traveler of the rest of the rigamarole you post to reinforce your claim. It takes a couple of minutes to reef a main if you are smart enough to wait for the last moment. Also, marconi mains can be set with a furler, which you claim solves the issues.

 

[brian eiland]

On a catamaran a boom is unnecessary. The main can also be furled so that is not a difference with a jib.

How long does it take to furl that main, ....particularly with winds whipping up,...from various directions in beginning squall conditions???

 

[brian eiland]

These reefing exercises don't appear ones I would like to experience with an approaching squall,....and these examples were on relatively small vessels.

 

[wet feet]

I'm baffled by anybody considering this a good idea.There are two fundamental facets of boat performance that can't possibly be satisfied by such an arrangement:it is well established that keeping weight out of the ends of the boat aids performance and quite simple physics tells us that weight aloft is a bad thing.An A-frame mast near the stern is about as bad as it gets.

 

[brian eiland]

You need to keep an open mind. This gentleman did,..

Artemis catamaran
Dazcat "Artemis"

Built by Multimarine, ‘Artemis’ is a fully wheelchair accessible sailing boat, set for circumnavigation and exploration. Her design incorporates a number of innovations including the radical sail configuration, aimed at enabling singlehanded sailing from the wheelchair and much, much more.

Accessible Expedition Catamaran

Accessible expedition cat ‘Artemis’ is a fully wheelchair accessible exploration sailing boat with many innovations including a radical sail configuration

www.multihullcentre.com

 

[gonzo]

How long does it take to furl that main, ....particularly with winds whipping up,...from various directions in beginning squall conditions???

The wind does not come from various directions during a squall. I can reef a main in three minutes on a 30 foot boat.

 

[brian eiland]

What we can learn from Anna's Capsize

Chris White Designs A57 A 57 Cerulean power reaching in Caribbean tradewinds. Chris White Designs Spindrift 14m. Spindrift 14m Powercat. New Design.

www.chriswhitedesigns.com

Only 2 weeks ago, as Kate and I sailed Javelin south along the Windward Islands in the Caribbean, a squall of this type hit us hard. There was a tropical wave passing through which was in the process of turning into a tropical storm, and atmospheric conditions were quite unstable with overcast skies and frequent squalls. It had been blowing 18-20 knots and we had a single reef in the main and the full self tacking staysail. We were sailing at a true wind angle of 50 degrees or so at about 9 knots. The squall looked like the others more or less, though I was concerned that its movement seemed different. In any case, a few minutes after the initial wind gust and rain, the wind really cranked up and headed us. Then it increased again and headed us more. There was way too much wind for the sail we carried, so I luffed up enough to depower Javelin, trying to walk the fine line between flogging the sails violently and keeping our boat speed down below 12 kts. It was exciting, too exciting, and when it did not let up after a few minutes we dropped the mainsail entirely. If truth be told, the whole event left me pretty rattled. We experienced an increase from 20 to 45 kts of wind in a fraction of a minute along with a 90 degree wind shift. I did not expect that at all. And that's the lesson. Sometimes a squall will dish out something that you don't expect and are not prepared for. It may only be one out of 50 or 100 squalls that are truly dangerous but you don't know and can never be sure which ones they are.

The autopilot is indispensable for short handed cruising. I love the autopilot on Javelin and use it almost all the time. It steers the boat very well, better than most helmsmen. But the autopilot is a dumb machine. It cannot see the black squall line coming nor the water being whipped white by the leading edge of a gust front. It does not deduce that since the wind velocity has increased from 20 to 30 knots in 6 seconds that it may shortly increase to 50 knots. The autopilot has no survival instinct. The autopilot cannot anticipate the future. It has severe limits and sometimes,


The Autopilot must be turned off!!

So do you think your 3 minute routine would have worked here??.....and I rather doubt you could have accomplished reefing that tall mainsail that quickly.

I would liked to have had that releasing cleat the French are using.

 

[wet feet]

That A-frame abomination probably has enough windage to capsize in a severe squall with all sails furled.

 

[gonzo]

What we can learn from Anna's Capsize

Chris White Designs A57 A 57 Cerulean power reaching in Caribbean tradewinds. Chris White Designs Spindrift 14m. Spindrift 14m Powercat. New Design.

www.chriswhitedesigns.com

So do you think your 3 minute routine would have worked here??.....and I rather doubt you could have accomplished reefing that tall mainsail that quickly.

I would liked to have had that releasing cleat the French are using.

Firstly, I said three minutes on a 30 footer. Secondly, the account clearly shows that they kept the sail up too long. When they saw the squall approaching, it gave them enough time to douse the main. In short, they made a poor decision.

 

[brian eiland]

I think you need to reread a bit of those postings;

1) by Chris White himself
Only 2 weeks ago, as Kate and I sailed Javelin south along the Windward Islands in the Caribbean, a squall of this type hit us hard. There was a tropical wave passing through which was in the process of turning into a tropical storm, and atmospheric conditions were quite unstable with overcast skies and frequent squalls. It had been blowing 18-20 knots and we had a single reef in the main and the full self tacking staysail. We were sailing at a true wind angle of 50 degrees or so at about 9 knots. The squall looked like the others more or less, though I was concerned that its movement seemed different. In any case, a few minutes after the initial wind gust and rain, the wind really cranked up and headed us. Then it increased again and headed us more. There was way too much wind for the sail we carried,..

It was exciting, too exciting, and when it did not let up after a few minutes we dropped the mainsail entirely. If truth be told, the whole event left me pretty rattled. We experienced an increase from 20 to 45 kts of wind in a fraction of a minute along with a 90 degree wind shift. I did not expect that at all. And that's the lesson. Sometimes a squall will dish out something that you don't expect and are not prepared for. It may only be one out of 50 or 100 squalls that are truly dangerous but you don't know and can never be sure which ones they are.

2) aboard Anna,

The report from Anna was the squall did not look any different than the others. But the last wind reading they noticed was 62 knots. That's a lot of wind. And they had the same sail up as Javelin did in the squall I just mentioned, a single reefed main and the full self tacking jib. Keep in mind that power in the wind increases as the square of the velocity. Doubling the velocity from 20 to 40 kts increases the pressure on the sails by FOUR times. Tripling the wind velocity from 20 to 60 kts increases the wind pressure by NINE times.

Reefing not only reduces the sail area but removes sail area from up high where the wind pressure exerts the most leverage trying to turn the boat over. The typical catamaran mainsail is large with a very rounded roach that increases the sail area near the top of the sail where it exerts the most heeling force. The combination of both reducing the sail area and reducing its height by reefing has a dramatic effect on stability, allowing the boat to stand up to much stronger gusts.

 

[gonzo]

They said: The squall looked like the others more or less, though I was concerned that its movement seemed different. In any case, a few minutes after the initial wind gust and rain, the wind really cranked up and headed us. Then it increased again and headed us more. There was way too much wind for the sail we carried,.. They saw the squall coming, recognized it was different, and still did not shorten sail beforehand.

 

[brian eiland]

After 50,000 Miles, Hal Roth

I think a lot of sailors have come to respect this gentleman,...

Reefed and unreefed and changed headsails 61 times in 19 days!!

He changed down to a cutter, ......and hopefully some sort of furling gear on his headsail(s) .

 

[gonzo]

A bit over three headsail changes a day was not bad. I remember racing IOR as a bowman and we could change over fifteen in a day when the wind strength and boat heading was changing.