Lee Taylor's Discovery II rocket boat

[RatliffFranklin]

Canards

There is some debate on Wing-In-Ground- Effect (WIG's) craft on whether or not canards can be operated fast enough by the operator to avoid crashing.

Unlimited hydroplanes have been equipped with driver-controlled footpedal-actuated canard wings.

Is the footpedal a fly-by-wire, in this I mean is a computer with sensors helping in the final action or actual control of the hydroplane?

Just a driver keeping his eye on the horizon and his foot on the pedal.

Don't forget the Wright's planes were canards and made their early flights in ground effect.

 

[kach22i]

Don't forget the Wright's planes were canards and made their early flights in ground effect.

Good point, but the speeds were much - much slower.

edge of a blowover to get more speed.

Keeping the nose up or down?

 

[Earl Boebert]

Please excuse my ignorance (I'm a sailboat guy), but what kind of vehicle qualifies for the record? In particular, what rule forbids an ekranoplan or a hydrofoil? I googled on this for a while and got nothing. Thanks.

Cheers,

Earl

 

[RatliffFranklin]

Attitude

Good point, but the speeds were much - much slower.

edge of a blowover to get more speed.

Keeping the nose up or down?

Up like an F1/Grand Prix tunnel hull boat.

 

[RatliffFranklin]

Rules

Please excuse my ignorance (I'm a sailboat guy), but what kind of vehicle qualifies for the record? In particular, what rule forbids an ekranoplan or a hydrofoil? I googled on this for a while and got nothing. Thanks.

Cheers,

Earl

I'm not sure about an ekranoplan, but nothing forbids hydrofoils. It's just that the previous attempts using hydrofoils (in the thirties and early fifties) were done before the technology was mature enough. In theory a boat with supercavitating foils should work. (Look up "Hanning-Lee" and "White Hawk".)

 

[NADreamcatcher]

UIM has several different weight classifications to the Unlimited class for record runs as well as a prototype class. Unlimited is just like it's definition, "Unlimited". Other than current capsule requirements and safety requirements there are no rules to Unlimiteds. The WWSR can be set by any boat of any weight or type or classification. I supposed if there was a WIG or Foil that could float take off, run close to the waters surface maybe touch it once in a while and then float again at the end of the run it would be considered a boat? "If" there was such a beast it may be difficult to differentiate a boat from a plane, but so far nothing like this exists at record speed. Canard wings are not allowed in any other class of boat racing that I am aware of besides U boats. Atleast not adjustable on the fly. Also breaking devices are ruled out for all including Unlimiteds. The rules are grey on this one and I am not sure if hydrodynamic devices for breaking purposes are allowed if they are used non aggresively or altogether. F1 tunnels as well as every other boat is fastest flying level with the least amount of wetted surface. Nose high even at 100 reduces speed. I will leave you ppl to your post, I have already p'od Dan....Enjoy!


NAD

 

[RatliffFranklin]

The idea that aerodynamic aids like canard wings and vertical stabilizers don't belong on boats outside of Unlimiteds is an anachronism. The UIM needs to catch up with where boat performance is now.

Bluebird had a water brake.

http://www.users.myisp.co.uk/~climengs/bluebird/coniston.htm

"Ken Norris also suggests that had Campbell not reduced thrust, but applied the water brake first, he may have stabilised Bluebird enough to survive the incident. When Bluebird was salvaged, it was discovered that the water brake had indeed been applied, but Campbell was probably airborne by then."

 

[NADreamcatcher]

Brakes

The idea that aerodynamic aids like canard wings and vertical stabilizers don't belong on boats outside of Unlimiteds is an anachronism. The UIM needs to catch up with where boat performance is now.

Bluebird had a water brake.

http://www.users.myisp.co.uk/~climengs/bluebird/coniston.htm

"Ken Norris also suggests that had Campbell not reduced thrust, but applied the water brake first, he may have stabilised Bluebird enough to survive the incident. When Bluebird was salvaged, it was discovered that the water brake had indeed been applied, but Campbell was probably airborne by then."

I said in classes other than Unlimited...They can not be controlled on the fly.
UIM or APBA or whoever has minimal ruling on Unlimited and that is the way they believe it should be, but in the interest of safety there are some rules...I think they would know. I developed pnuematic brakes on a SE Tunnel that I built and raced at the age of 13...The first test was with a single cylinder with a 1/2" shaft mounted on the back of the left sponson @ 70 it barrel rolled hard! And yes it hurt. A few weeks later I was back at the lake with two brakes, one on the left and one on the right. It worked perfect, running flat out flying high I could touch the button on the wheel turn left to set the sponson and never and I mean never take the throttle off the stop. In competition it allowed me to run as much as five boat lengths deeper into a turn. I could actually pass the first turn buoy before hitting the button and stay tight to the buoy. My favorite races were course's with One turn buoy. The same year the factory boys were playing with the same kind of set up only their's had a ball on the end of the shaft. To me it appeared the back of the boat would actually lift off the water at times while the front dove hard. With my brakes the wall of water coming off both sides of each sponson was so high it was like tunnel vision looking ahead. I could not see on either side of my boat at all until I turned and exited the corner and took flight again. The brakes were later banned, most likely for two reasons...one visibility for other drivers and two because they also caused nose dives...those were pre capsule days with break away steering and cowling. Tunnels then started to develop from being high flyers to level flight mostly because of tunnel bottom shape changes. UIM ruling states no hydrodynamic braking device that causes a visibility problem on the Unlimited's...I am not exactly sure what that means. There is no ruling on wings or stabilizers. Some one please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[RatliffFranklin]

Water Brake Steering

I said in classes other than Unlimited...They can not be controlled on the fly.
UIM or APBA or whoever has minimal ruling on Unlimited and that is the way they believe it should be, but in the interest of safety there are some rules...I think they would know. I developed pnuematic brakes on a SE Tunnel that I built and raced at the age of 13...The first test was with a single cylinder with a 1/2" shaft mounted on the back of the left sponson @ 70 it barrel rolled hard! And yes it hurt. A few weeks later I was back at the lake with two brakes, one on the left and one on the right. It worked perfect, running flat out flying high I could touch the button on the wheel turn left to set the sponson and never and I mean never take the throttle off the stop. In competition it allowed me to run as much as five boat lengths deeper into a turn. I could actually pass the first turn buoy before hitting the button and stay tight to the buoy. My favorite races were course's with One turn buoy. The same year the factory boys were playing with the same kind of set up only their's had a ball on the end of the shaft. To me it appeared the back of the boat would actually lift off the water at times while the front dove hard. With my brakes the wall of water coming off both sides of each sponson was so high it was like tunnel vision looking ahead. I could not see on either side of my boat at all until I turned and exited the corner and took flight again. The brakes were later banned, most likely for two reasons...one visibility for other drivers and two because they also caused nose dives...those were pre capsule days with break away steering and cowling. Tunnels then started to develop from being high flyers to level flight mostly because of tunnel bottom shape changes. UIM ruling states no hydrodynamic braking device that causes a visibility problem on the Unlimited's...I am not exactly sure what that means. There is no ruling on wings or stabilizers. Some one please correct me if I am wrong.

I was not familiar with the idea of using water brakes for steering, but that is very interesting.

When Craig Arfons ran his boat it had a consistent tendency to veer to the driver's right but they could not get it to steer. The boat had a deep fixed skeg with the rudder mounted in line behind the skeg. For the record attempt (the first time the boat ran on smooth water) they positioned the boat to the far left side of the course with the hope Craig could get through the kilo before the boat reached the far right side.

Repositioning the rudder may have helped, but now I'm wondering if some form of water brake steering would have been worth considering too.

 

[NADreamcatcher]

I was not familiar with the idea of using water brakes for steering, but that is very interesting.

When Craig Arfons ran his boat it had a consistent tendency to veer to the driver's right but they could not get it to steer. The boat had a deep fixed skeg with the rudder mounted in line behind the skeg. For the record attempt (the first time the boat ran on smooth water) they positioned the boat to the far left side of the course with the hope Craig could get through the kilo before the boat reached the far right side.

Repositioning the rudder may have helped, but now I'm wondering if some form of water brake steering would have been worth considering too.

I think you misunderstood me...The brakes were not used to turn...That's what I tried first and it was a disaster! Boat barrel rolled five times and broke into a lot of pieces pinning me under it without any rescue whatsoever, in ice cold water! The brakes were then mounted on both sides and worked simultaniously, it just slammed the nose down with out having to back off. You did not dare to turn the wheel before touching the brake button. Tunnels don't have a problem turning once they touch the pads near the front. Bluebird had a turn rudder on the left a stabilizer rudder on the right and a brake dead center...My boat weighed 675lbs. with driver and gas, and two 1/2 stainless shafts that went a few inches below the pads slowed right NOW! Consider thrust vectoring instead.

NAD

 

[RatliffFranklin]

Water Brake Steering

I think you misunderstood me...The brakes were not used to turn...That's what I tried first and it was a disaster! Boat barrel rolled five times and broke into a lot of pieces pinning me under it without any rescue whatsoever, in ice cold water! The brakes were then mounted on both sides and worked simultaniously, it just slammed the nose down with out having to back off. You did not dare to turn the wheel before touching the brake button. Tunnels don't have a problem turning once they touch the pads near the front. Bluebird had a turn rudder on the left a stabilizer rudder on the right and a brake dead center...My boat weighed 675lbs. with driver and gas, and two 1/2 stainless shafts that went a few inches below the pads slowed right NOW! Consider thrust vectoring instead.

NAD

I understood you perfectly. Just because it didn't work the way you were using it doesn't mean the idea when applied with more finesse can't be made to work.

Below is a link to a thread with photos of Craig's boat.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15459&highlight=craig+arfons

 

[NADreamcatcher]

I understood you perfectly. Just because it didn't work the way you were using it doesn't mean the idea when applied with more finesse can't be made to work.

Below is a link to a thread with photos of Craig's boat.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15459&highlight=craig+arfons

No you did not understand... It worked perfectly the way I used it...And no the way I used it will not work for what you are thinking...And yes a Cat claw will work with finesssssse! Have fun!


NAD

 

[RatliffFranklin]

Water brakes

No you did not understand... It worked perfectly the way I used it...And no the way I used it will not work for what you are thinking...And yes a Cat claw will work with finesssssse! Have fun!


NAD

So which part of this was I misinterpreting? It appears you said you first tried the brakes for steering but encountered a few glitches. "The brakes were not used to turn...That's what I tried first and it was a disaster! Boat barrel rolled five times and broke into a lot of pieces pinning me under it without any rescue whatsoever, in ice cold water! The brakes were then mounted on both sides and worked simultaniously, it just slammed the nose down with out having to back off. You did not dare to turn the wheel before touching the brake button."

 

[NADreamcatcher]

So which part of this was I misinterpreting? It appears you said you first tried the brakes for steering but encountered a few glitches. "The brakes were not used to turn...That's what I tried first and it was a disaster! Boat barrel rolled five times and broke into a lot of pieces pinning me under it without any rescue whatsoever, in ice cold water! The brakes were then mounted on both sides and worked simultaniously, it just slammed the nose down with out having to back off. You did not dare to turn the wheel before touching the brake button."

A few weeks later I was back at the lake with two brakes, one on the left and one on the right. It worked perfect, running flat out flying high I could touch the button on the wheel turn left to set the sponson and never and I mean never take the throttle off the stop. In competition it allowed me to run as much as five boat lengths deeper into a turn. I could actually pass the first turn buoy before hitting the button and stay tight to the buoy

If you ever ran a boat on a closed course you would understand. You have to stick the nose before you turn...or you need to settle it down first. Hydro Tunnel V bottom whatever, you had to set it down first and that takes time so with the brakes you could run flat out and never lift the throttle...Guess you never drove a boat before Franklin.

NAD

 

[RatliffFranklin]

Boat racing

A few weeks later I was back at the lake with two brakes, one on the left and one on the right. It worked perfect, running flat out flying high I could touch the button on the wheel turn left to set the sponson and never and I mean never take the throttle off the stop. In competition it allowed me to run as much as five boat lengths deeper into a turn. I could actually pass the first turn buoy before hitting the button and stay tight to the buoy

If you ever ran a boat on a closed course you would understand. You have to stick the nose before you turn...or you need to settle it down first. Hydro Tunnel V bottom whatever, you had to set it down first and that takes time so with the brakes you could run flat out and never lift the throttle...Guess you never drove a boat before Franklin.

NAD

I've watched a lot of F1/Grand Prix boat racing on ESPN. It's hard to miss how they bring the nose down before making the turn. I've also watched the segments where they explain how the driver adjusts not only the angle of the engine but raises and lowers it to set the boat up for the turn or the straight. I also read Les Staudacher's account of his trial runs with Tempo Alcoa where he said you could tell which side had the lowest sponson by the boat wanting to turn toward the side with the most drag. (Tempo Alcoa was a bit jet picklefork similar in many ways to Craig Arfons' boat). I'm also aware of how Unlimited (Gold Cup) hydroplanes depend on the skid fin for making a turn because, in part, they don't have adjustable drives.