Dugout canoe with a more modern design?

[gonzo]

Pick up a 1x4 (3/4"x3 1/2"). Get a hammer and try to break it.

 

[Lost Caddo]

Haha. How big is the hammer? I do get your point though. And I have built things using much less knowledge or information. Often it has worked out.

 

[Skip Johnson]

Are the hull designs you created for this MR340 an outrigger design?

One is an outrigger the other a catamaran, most of my designs are for the Texas Water Safari, all mono hull, solo to 6 man. I had done an outrigger years ago for Yancy Scroggins which worked well for him, much more recently I did the hull design for the final iteration of the Kraken.

Also recently the latest 2 to 4 man outriggers for Riverhawk. They did really well before the race was called but it was primarily due to the motors in the boats.

 

[Lost Caddo]

Wow. Cool stuff! Everything about the Riverhawks impress me. And the Kraken is such an interesting machine. It works so amazingly well. I've done the Safari a few times and that race is tough on boats. I have seen more than one folded inside out like a fortune cookie.

 

[trip the light fandango]

If you carve gunnels,ribs and keelson into the canoe you will be able to make it significantly thinner and lighter.
Edit, I didn't see Gonzo's post that said pretty much the same thing, depending on grain consistancy, 1/2 should be thick enough with 1 inch rib thickness at the length and beam you describe, but as mentioned by another poster it has to stay wet or very well oiled. The boiled linseed process is once a day for a week then once a week for a month once a month for a year.

 

[Lost Caddo]

I didn't think about extra thickness for gunnels. I'll have to go back and add some weight for that. I def want a lighter boat but don't want it to be fragile and I'm unsure where that line is. Thanks

 

[Skip Johnson]

Wow. Cool stuff! Everything about the Riverhawks impress me. And the Kraken is such an interesting machine. It works so amazingly well. I've done the Safari a few times and that race is tough on boats. I have seen more than one folded inside out like a fortune cookie.

Yeah I thought I was through designing boats for other people but the Kraken was a really interesting challenge. I had nothing to do with the paddle drives but they needed help with the hull design. The Safari is hard on everything; boats, paddlers, team captains, race officials and even spectators if they follow the whole race.

One more time, if you're wanting to do a contemporary design in a solid wood log why exclude outriggers? An solid wood outrigger would be easier to build (really just less difficult) and drastically improve your chances of finishing and finishing well.

 

[BlueBell]

Tight grain, clear wood ( no knots, especially where you don't want them ),
narrow beam with outriggers, and a clever design would do you well.
You could easily go down to one inch thickness, and below, with a good design.
Oiling would be ideal.

 

[Lost Caddo]

One more time, if you're wanting to do a contemporary design in a solid wood log why exclude outriggers? An solid wood outrigger would be easier to build (really just less difficult) and drastically improve your chances of finishing and finishing well.

Skip, you are right. I have to consider an outrigger. My initial pushback is probably misguided but here's my concern and I'd appreciate your feedback. Previous entries in the dugout class were obviously dugouts. If I enter a boat in this class that looks like a composite boat (at 20 ft away), I may have to spend time defending it as a true dugout. An outrigger may even compound that. As I type this it sounds silly even to me but I have zero interest in using time to prove that something meets the rules for a class that has essentially no rules. To be fair, the MR community is the most welcoming and supportive group I've seen for any race. With 600 racers though, there will be 600 opinions on dugouts. What do you think?

 

[Skip Johnson]

Other than Yancy's boat years ago all my experience with the MR 340 is recent ~ 4 years and I agree that it is the most laid back large race organization I've encountered with some real real emphasis on safety and community. What I think is if you arrive at the race with a dugout that could be mistaken for a Riverhawk or equivalent from 20 feet away you should be considered for an award for the most anal retentive dugout maker in history ;-)

Seriously I don't see a problem, any craft hewn from a log is going to look like a craft hewn from a log and anyone who would propose that such should compete in the same class as the Riverhawks risks certain ridicule. This is a bunch that permits,even encourages contraptions like the Kraken and tongue in cheek assemblies with 4 hobie drives on a raft. Go build, train, enter and race your dugout, a lot of people will cheer you on. Lash the bamboo supports for your outrigger with rawhide straps instead of dyneema and you should be fine.

There's a lot I don't know about dugout construction and care but from a design and use standpoint an outrigger makes an enormous amount of sense.

 

[sdowney717]

Other than Yancy's boat years ago all my experience with the MR 340 is recent ~ 4 years and I agree that it is the most laid back large race organization I've encountered with some real real emphasis on safety and community. What I think is if you arrive at the race with a dugout that could be mistaken for a Riverhawk or equivalent from 20 feet away you should be considered for an award for the most anal retentive dugout maker in history ;-)

Seriously I don't see a problem, any craft hewn from a log is going to look like a craft hewn from a log and anyone who would propose that such should compete in the same class as the Riverhawks risks certain ridicule. This is a bunch that permits,even encourages contraptions like the Kraken and tongue in cheek assemblies with 4 hobie drives on a raft. Go build, train, enter and race your dugout, a lot of people will cheer you on. Lash the bamboo supports for your outrigger with rawhide straps instead of dyneema and you should be fine.

There's a lot I don't know about dugout construction and care but from a design and use standpoint an outrigger makes an enormous amount of sense.

yeah, as logs roll
As a kid in a canoe, I found it unstable and easy to also roll over.

 

[BlueBell]

Lost Caddo,

I think "Skip" raises good points.
If you show up with an oiled, hand tooled ( or CNC'ed ), dug-out; you're The Man !!
Imagine the potential of a good design !

Ama's do not have to be large, or have huge spacing ( beam ).
I can certainly understand your reluctance, but again, a good design...
An OC4 or OC6 comes to mind.
The Polynesians had some pretty cool dugouts with amas.

What's your lead time before the race for sea-trialing and familiarization / training?

I acknowledge you've ignored all my posts so far on your thread.
This will be my last. Best of luck in your endeavour.
Please post pictures of your progress.
Godspeed.

 

[gonzo]

I have some experience rowing on dugouts. They are somewhat tippy, but no more than a rowing shell or a kayak. The only thing that I had to get used to was the slow acceleration, and the effort to make them stop.

 

[portacruise]

An Outrigger designed to be easily removed and /or folded in might be a consideration? It makes it easier to transport such a long distance in the folding /detached position. No need to cut it off, if rules don't allow an Outrigger. Allows the option to deploy in wind / rough water conditions for better stability, or fold in for better speed when the water is smooth? Assuming the rules allow it, of course.

There may be various varieties of Cottonwood, but the few I have seen in Texas are kind of weak wood. Our next door neighbor had one variety when I was a young kid growing up. Every time a good wind storm came up, some limbs would break off more easily compared to Hardwood Mesquite, Oak, cedar, and other varieties in the area. So I don't know if that means someone would have to adjust the thickness of the hull to compensate? Just my two cents worth, FWIW.

 

[Lost Caddo]

What's your lead time before the race for sea-trialing and familiarization / training?

I posted this earlier > " I have until the Jan 1. registration to see if I can come up with a dugout plan but if not I'll do the race solo in a Stellar kayak with a goal of 48 hours. The race is the end of July so I would have about 6 mos to build." Sea trial could be as simple as one day on the nearby Red River. It has some current so it would be possible to gauge the current then see how much effort is required to go faster than the current.