can it work?? dream at stake here...

[tugboat]

Hi guys... you have all been so helpful in the past--so want to thank ALL OF YOU..


i have just spent two weeks bedridden due to my back being in agony, and have had to abondon my steel tugboat project which ive already invested time & $$ into.

on top of that - there are no designs i am happy with including my flat bottom one...for reasons i wont get into here.

anyway- my back is finished..ill probably be wheelchair bound in the next ten years cuz of it..but - I am not giving up and hoping to try using a 1" thick core (honeycomb) or 3/8ths thick t600 core cell(can get a good deal on it).

I know many of you will be tempted to tell me not to use core below the waterline or that this design wont work or what have you- i kindly ask you to refrain from that type of comment--and just offer opinions on what im asking; thanks in advance for staying focussed.

im here to ask this one question to anyone who might know-

and trust me ive been on the phone all week trying to see if my gut feeling of NOT doing it--is wrong

sadly i have never liked a hull more...

its the perfect boat--didnt think there was but i fear its one flaw--is i dont know if it can be built without using an expensive closed mold...and single skin laminate.
if at all....

sooo

question:

will a 1" thick honeycomb core- or 3/8th corecell foam(t600) work to form over an open mold to the radii shown in the tugboat design?? the core cell is heat tolerant and cannot be t-formed. it can only be scored. so im guessing it wont form well to the curvature.

same with the 1" thick honeycomb. the laminate schedule is 4 layers per side of 22 oz triax. cloth. knitted.
so does anyone see anything that would prevent me from using either one of these cores on this hull? i.e- will the curvature cause me headaches and nightmares?

if so i can proceed-if not ill abandon my dream..

 

[Eric Sponberg]

Tugboat,

Sorry to hear of your back problems. Life is no fun with pain in it.

Re your question: There are various ways to make cores conform to the curvature you show. For Core-Cell, the easiest is to strip plank the hull with the core, planking longitudinally and glueing the strips together with resin. Honeycombs are available that conform to 2D curvature, and so you would have to cut them in short sections to piece them around compound curves.

If you want a thermoformable core, use Airex, which has similar structureal properties to Core-Cell.

I hope that helps.

Eric

 

[tugboat]

Tugboat,

Sorry to hear of your back problems. Life is no fun with pain in it.

Re your question: There are various ways to make cores conform to the curvature you show. For Core-Cell, the easiest is to strip plank the hull with the core, planking longitudinally and glueing the strips together with resin. Honeycombs are available that conform to 2D curvature, and so you would have to cut them in short sections to piece them around compound curves.

If you want a thermoformable core, use Airex, which has similar structureal properties to Core-Cell.

I hope that helps.

Eric

Hi Eric- much appreciated--yea--i didnt count on this much pain--incapacitating..of course--i DO need to lose weight but even in the past- when ive been lighter-ive still had bad back pain--its a disk rubbing against another one wearing it down..
anyway- core cell is probably my best bet since airex 63 is about 7.50 a sq ft!!@5./8ths.
this is weird to me since core cell is cheaper and the industry to my knowedge recognizes it as a better material?

what about ply ? coud it be stripped planked? then glass both sides?
looks like the core-cell would be my best bet--but ply is cheaper?

thx Eric!

 

[midnitmike]

While I can't offer any advice on the question of core material...sorry, I do wonder about the suitability of triaxle on such a design. Granted my experience with this material is rather limited, but the one thing it has clearly demonstrated to me over the years is how difficult it is to work on anything less then an almost perfectly flat surface. Even to this day I'll only consider using triaxle in a laminate if it's confined to a flat sheet, or a single curve. Even then special care has to be taken in both cutting and handling the material to make sure you don't distort the fabric in any way.

OK now back to the core question.

MM

 

[BertKu]

Hi Tugboat,

21 years ago the professor told me, that he would have me within one year on the operating table. I was in agony and was wearing a 10 inch wide boxer belt to help my back. His wife who was a physiotherapist worked on my back, but little success and I gave up after 6 months.
Soon thereafter my wife was requested to clean up a factory in East London at the RSA coast and I build a double story house there. During the building operations, I did not feel like traveling 17 km up and 17 km back to have lunch in town. I needed all the time to completed some part of a living quarters to welcome my wife and daughter. My wife was still at her head office in Johannesburg. What did I do, I drunk milk, not 1 or 2 or 3 , but up to 4 liters per day. Suddenly after one month, I was able to lift 40 -50 kg and to my surprise had no trouble with my back anymore. There and then I decided that my problem all along was the shortfall during my first 6 years I grew up. I was born in World War 2 while Rotterdam was being bombed and occupied by the Germans. I never court up with sufficient Calcium intake. I am now 72 and up to now I drink lots of low fat milk every day. Moral of the story, Try 4 liters of low fat milk for a couple of weeks, you may also have a shortfall during your young years. Who knows. It is damn cheaper than an operation.What can you loose?
Bert

 

[Doug Lord]

Back

Hi Eric- much appreciated--yea--i didnt count on this much pain--incapacitating..of course--i DO need to lose weight but even in the past- when ive been lighter-ive still had bad back pain--its a disk rubbing against another one wearing it down..
anyway- core cell is probably my best bet since airex 63 is about 7.50 a sq ft!!@5./8ths.
this is weird to me since core cell is cheaper and the industry to my knowedge recognizes it as a better material?

what about ply ? coud it be stripped planked? then glass both sides?
looks like the core-cell would be my best bet--but ply is cheaper?

thx Eric!

=======================
Tugboat, I have had to suspend a boat building project because of my debilitating back pain so I know, to some extent, what you're going thru.
In Florida there is an organization called Florida Vocational Rehab, part of the Department of Education. If you are still working they will pay 100% of the cost of an operation if that would help or whatever will help. Thats my next step-takes 3-6 months to get set up. Maybe there is something like that where you live? Good Luck!

 

[tom28571]

Perhaps biaxial would conform easier although I have seen a lot of triax going into a large cored catamaran lately.

I had back surgery 4 years ago after flames in the leg got too much and "pain management" only added pain. After titanium screws and nylon rods plus some gouging, scraping and a bit of bone transplanting, its not totally fixed but manageable if I'm careful.

 

[tugboat]

Hi Tugboat,

21 years ago the professor told me, that he would have me within one year on the operating table. I was in agony and was wearing a 10 inch wide boxer belt to help my back. His wife who was a physiotherapist worked on my back, but little success and I gave up after 6 months.
Soon thereafter my wife was requested to clean up a factory in East London at the RSA coast and I build a double story house there. During the building operations, I did not feel like traveling 17 km up and 17 km back to have lunch in town. I needed all the time to completed some part of a living quarters to welcome my wife and daughter. My wife was still at her head office in Johannesburg. What did I do, I drunk milk, not 1 or 2 or 3 , but up to 4 liters per day. Suddenly after one month, I was able to lift 40 -50 kg and to my surprise had no trouble with my back anymore. There and then I decided that my problem all along was the shortfall during my first 6 years I grew up. I was born in World War 2 while Rotterdam was being bombed and occupied by the Germans. I never court up with sufficient Calcium intake. I am now 72 and up to now I drink lots of low fat milk every day. Moral of the story, Try 4 liters of low fat milk for a couple of weeks, you may also have a shortfall during your young years. Who knows. It is damn cheaper than an operation.What can you loose?
Bert

Thanks ol' freind. i might just try that---im dosing up with large amounts of t-1's but i kmow im living on borrowed time...
I hope your boat is going well!! thx for the support...

 

[tugboat]

=======================
Tugboat, I have had to suspend a boat building project because of my debilitating back pain so I know, to some extent, what you're going thru.
In Florida there is an organization called Florida Vocational Rehab, part of the Department of Education. If you are still working they will pay 100% of the cost of an operation if that would help or whatever will help. Thats my next step-takes 3-6 months to get set up. Maybe there is something like that where you live? Good Luck!

yea it seems to be an epidemic--so many with back issues--which surpirses me--its not like cancer where we can blame chemicals or power lines etc..

seems humans aren't designed to do the kind of work that screws up backs...

Ill look into your suggestion and appreciate the support...hope u can get back on track with your boat- i know for me its like someone stole my happiness- like they told me the tooth fairy doesnt exist..- i need to build this boat...

 

[tugboat]

Perhaps biaxial would conform easier although I have seen a lot of triax going into a large cored catamaran lately.

I had back surgery 4 years ago after flames in the leg got too much and "pain management" only added pain. After titanium screws and nylon rods plus some gouging, scraping and a bit of bone transplanting, its not totally fixed but manageable if I'm careful.

"ohhhhh" I know that feeling! like someone is running a hot wire down both legs right into my heel...i hope i dont go under the knife--its always been there-the pain-but lately its really been unbearable...
triax might not conform...hmmmm another problem to be solved...

 

[BertKu]

Thanks ol' freind. i might just try that---im dosing up with large amounts of t-1's but i kmow im living on borrowed time...
I hope your boat is going well!! thx for the support...

No you are not living on borrowed time. There was a Canadian Doctor who wrote a book that most of the operations on backs were actual not necessary. Doctors like to operate, as it keeps their practical knowledge up to date. Not to forget the income side. It just not only the Calcium, there are substances in the milk what boost your back. Otherwise we could have drunk water with calcium tablets when we on our mothers lap. Bert

 

[midnitmike]

While I don't want to lose track of the subject (which is the question of suitable core material for this project) I should point out that according to GE Ol Tugboat is sitting about 900 yards offshore of Lake Road on Northeastern Manitoulin Island way up there in the Canadian Province of Ontario. At least the Lat/Lon numbers put me there...

MM

 

[tugboat]

While I don't want to lose track of the subject (which is the question of suitable core material for this project) I should point out that according to GE Ol Tugboat is sitting about 900 yards offshore of Lake Road on Northeastern Manitoulin Island way up there in the Canadian Province of Ontario. At least the Lat/Lon numbers put me there...

MM

Hi Mike--its a little off--the numbers I mean..but yea manitoulin island...
little current...the worlds best cruising grounds...you would love it!!

Doug

 

[BertKu]

Hi Doug, if we can solve your back problems, at least you can start using the solutions given by the forum members. My wife gave me 20 odd years ago a) a tot of Vicks Medinite (to sleep deep and relaxed) 2 aspirin's and a big spoon of PURE Evening Primrose oil (to reduce the swellings of the nerves. It has to be pure, not with lots of vitamins E in it)

The second thing I did, I put some light weights with a rope on each feet, and staid a few hours in bed. With the weights bangling at the end of the bed. Get some advice on how much the weight is allowed to be.

But all those solutions were temporary, the milk solved it for good. Sorry Doug, I cannot give you a solution for the hull. That is not my expertise.
Bert

 

[tunnels]

Hi
Sorry to hear about the back i used to stand between two drums and take my body weight completely off my feet and let my self hang limp and relaxed from the shoulders down for as long as i had the strength to hold it . then very gradually lower the body weigth evenly on both legs . no pain and felt like heaven . would last half a day and do the same thing again . My disc is just a fraction the thickness of what it should be .
Recently i had terrible pain in my knees and ankles and at times could hardly move !!,i took painkillers by the handfull . then my chinese lady friend went to the local witch doctor lady at the corner shop and told her and she came home with Vitamin D3 !! one in the morning one at night in a week i was walking with a niggly pain so upped the dosage to 2 in the morning and two at night and in 3 days no pain at all not a thing so for the last 7 months its the first and last things i eat every day . now I can walk continuasly and comfortably for 4 to 5 hours and not need a rest on s sunday i will have a additional couple if i intend to walk for miles . no pain just a little stiff the next morning !! im 68 and 1/2 .I gave up running a few years ago the jarring on my joints was to much even soft soled running shoes wernt good enought !!!
Is worth a try ! anything is better than being constantly in pain .