Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[philSweet]

For pretty much forever, the lead-acid battery industry has had 100% control of the price of battery power. There simply wasn't enough capacity among the alternatives to be able to put much price pressure on lead batteries. They basically competed with one another, and that was the price environment the other technologies had to deal with. That may finally be changing. It's about 20 years later than the lithium folks thought it would happen, but it does look like there is some competitive pressure on the lead battery industry as a whole. It will be interesting to see how and when this trickles down to more mundane batteries.

Here's one example.
12NXS120 - NexSys Online Store https://nexsysstore.com/product/12nxs120/

 

[gonzo]

Absorbed Glass Matt (AGM) and Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) batteries are significantly different from the old flooded acid type. The C charge/discharge rates can be much higher without causing damage or shortening the battery life. The dendrite formation is also greatly reduced, which is one of the typical failure on the flooded acid type. That link has some sales claims that make no sense. It states that the capacity is highe at C20 than C6, which is contrary to Peukert's Law. I worked on battery research at UW-Milwaukee for Johnson Controls for a couple of years. The project was given to Joshua Harris and myself, because the German engineers at Varta said it couldn't be done. We had a lot of fun with original research, even though at the start were upset to be transfered from Li Ion battery research. We thought it was a waste of time and a dead end. We discovered that there are at least two intermediate reactions during charge/discharge on AGM batteries. Unfortunately we got to the end of the project before having a chance of exploring that further. We did find out that the glass matt separator is the critical component. The diameter and consistency of the fibers affects the capacity of the battery. Also, the compression ratio of the glass matt is critical; there is a narrow optimal range. The main advantage of lead/acid batteries is that they are easily and economically recyclable. In applications where the weight is not an issue, they are much superior to Li Ion in price to capacity ratio.

 

[philSweet]

The capacities are for the 6 hour and 20 hour rates.

What does AI know . Ask it what a c6 rate is. Of course, they have the inverse, which I see all the time.
This is the way I learned it.

A C-rate of 1C is also known as a one-hour discharge; 0.5C or C/2 is a two-hour discharge and 0.2C or C/5 is a 5-hour discharge.

... but then there's this

A “C” rating is simply a battery’s capacity when discharged over a specific period of time.

This rating is acquired by adding a specific size load to a battery and allowing it to discharge completely in a 3, 5, 8, 10, 20 or 100 hour period. For instance, if the load discharges the battery in 5 hours, the manufacturer sums up the battery power produced in that 5 hour period and calls it the battery's C5 rating. If a load of different capacity discharges the battery in 20 hours, the manufacturer sum up the power the battery produced in that 20 hour period and marks it as the battery's C20 rating. Et cetera.

.

 

[gonzo]

So what the call C 5 is actually C 0.2 .

 

[philSweet]

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass

 

[philSweet]

Some new anecdotal evidence on a specific lithium ion fire health risk. I suspect quite a few people are going to experience a fire that ends up involving lithium ion batteries. The vapors released by these batteries are deadly toxic, and fluoric acid burns in the lungs are chronic and don't show up on initial scans.

 

[marlinspike]

Some new anecdotal evidence on a specific lithium ion fire health risk. I suspect quite a few people are going to experience a fire that ends up involving lithium ion batteries. The vapors released by these batteries are deadly toxic, and fluoric acid burns in the lungs are chronic and don't show up on initial scans.

If a fire started elsewhere in electrical circuitry, cooking range, etc. spreads across the boat to the battery bank in the bilge and they're up in flames, and you're still in the cabin, you're already dead.

If any modern materials boat burns up in a fire, there is going to be plenty of stuff burning that will kill you to inhale, not just the batteries. Lithium phosphate batteries used for electric boat propulsion don't have much risk of starting a fire like the NMC lithium batteries used in automobiles, or internal combustion engines do.

 

[brian eiland]

Toyota' New Battery Technology !!

 

[montero]

@Phil what do you think about this?
@Brian thank you for this video.

I haven't delved deeply into EV/Hybrid design, but I once wondered about the Prius in terms of the complexity and intricacy of its construction.

I think it was a masterpiece at the time.

 

[portacruise]

They didn't address a lot of issues in the video, like the Peukert. Maybe 1200 miles at 30 mph, but what is range at 60 mph? Also the temperature effect when driving during winter, how much will the range be diminished, some existing battery systems lose up to 50% at around zero fahrenheit. The dump charging concept for charging Vehicles has been used at EV dragster races in the past years, and it takes a lot of batteries to charge between Heats. The EV charging stations would have to be a lot bigger than the current ones which can be placed just about anywhere due to the small footprint . Battery dump charging stations might possibly occupy many acres of space. It might be possible to charge in 1 minute, but you might have to drive 30 minutes to get to a station away from the expensive land at convenient cities locations where the current system operates. Plus the cost of the stationary batteries at the charging stations will have to be built into the cost for a fill up. Also the cost of electricity itself is already expected to have a huge future rise due to data Center consumption. They would have to be built for Peak load which might be hard to predict, without over buying for the average capacity needed. A battery dump charge station might go through 2500 Cycles in a year? With the battery built into the frame, will it be cost effective to repair vehicles that get frame damage during a crash, with possibly a huge G-Force to the intricate inside battery cell structure with close tolerances within the cells? Etc.

 

[philSweet]

That isn't a Toyota video, and the claims are utter nonsense. Solid state batteries are interesting and have their niches. In transport, they are for mild hybrid systems, where gasoline range exceeds battery range by a factor of at least five. Most won't have a plug at all. As described, you'd need a 1MW charger. That's more than 20 house's worth of peak capacity rating. You'd need three power pole transformers just to recharge your car. If you don't work at a power plant, you aren't going to be recharging in ten minutes.

One proposed plan is to dump charge from one set of stationary batteries to the vehicle batteries. Okay, but now you need two batteries at >1MW, And the stationary set can only recharge one or two cars per day in an industrial setting, or maybe half a charge per day at home. This would be helpful where there is large excess solar and wind capacity at times, and not enough customers have battery energy storage systems.

Several months ago, Japanese real estate developer Tokyu Land said it is leading a consortium that will invest in six grid-scale BESS projects in Japan totalling 174 MW, an initiative that will require a total investment of about JPY 30 billion (USD 186.6m/EUR 162.9m). Akaysha, partners break ground on 20-MW battery project in Japan https://renewablesnow.com/news/akaysha-partners-break-ground-on-20-mw-battery-project-in-japan-1297477/

So this would recharge, say, 500 cars per day at a projected cost of 186 million USD - so about $400,000 capex per car.

A better way to look at it is to think about average mileage since you don't drive 600 miles per day on average. But if you drive 15000 miles per year, it's still about $30,000 - $40,000 capex per car. If the charger battery lasts 10 years, the capex alone is as much as the cost of gasoline or diesel and you haven't paid for the electricity yet.

Point being - you aren't going to be recharging your car in ten minutes.

 

[montero]

Toyota’s Solid-State Battery Is the Real Deal — But It Won’t Reach Your Driveway Until 2027 - EVCUBE.NET

Toyota's Solid-State Battery Is the Real Deal — But It Won't Reach Your Driveway Until 2027

evcube.net

 

[brian eiland]

Toyota’s Solid-State Battery Is the Real Deal — But It Won’t Reach Your Driveway Until 2027 - EVCUBE.NET

Toyota's Solid-State Battery Is the Real Deal — But It Won't Reach Your Driveway Until 2027

evcube.net

That is a TERRIBLE video ! I couldn't even watch it till the end,...got half way thru.

 

[montero]

I haven't watched the video but it really is terrible.

 

[portacruise]

Regarding the first video, who in the world needs to fill up in one minute, sounds sort of faky? Sodium batteries are already in production as an alternative without many of the negatives associated with lithium batteries. I don't think their power to weight ratio is quite as good though, but still much better than most of the alternate chemistries, like nickel metal hydride, and AGM.

Demand for electric power is moving much more rapidly than anyone ever expected. A versatile and self-sufficient way to store Electric Power is in some kind of electric vehicle which can serve a dual purpose as transportation. It probably will help with the coming huge price increases for electric grid power, and also for blackouts, or brownouts of electric power. It's much easier to make your own electric fuel from solar and wind, compared to making your own petrol!