Ancient balsa rafts from South America

[rgbujan]

I am sorry but I think I have mistaken the forum.
I wrote on the forum for boat builders and I found a linguistic forum ;-)

Grzegorz

 

[TANSL]

It is very normal for threads to experience drifts towards themes that have little to do with the original theme. Perhaps nobody wants or nobody knows how to answer your questions, but the object of the question itself raises other questions in our restless minds that do interest us or that we do know how to answer.
Have patience with us and try, if you wish, to redirect the issue to the waters for which you wish to navigate. (I use sailor words because we are in a boat design/building forum)

 

[Mr Efficiency]

Let's not lose the new year's bonhomie too early, gentlemen ! What's in a name, a rose by any other name would smell the same !

 

[rgbujan]

Hi Clarkey,

Or the author of the drawings, Joris Van Spielberg, mixed the hulls and sails, or the modern ones joined them together freely ...
But I also do not understand how to control the sail.

Good quality: Antique map by GOTTFRIED - Portrait of the islands Velas / Ladrones islands.] https://www.swaen.com/zoomV5e.php?id=33631&referer=antique-map-of.php

Grzegorz

I can't pretend to have any answers for you but one image of these rafts has always intrigued me:

 

[Mr Efficiency]

How are the papyrus boats of South America rigged ?

 

[rgbujan]

Hi Mr Efficiency,

Maybe it helps:
a reedboat history http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/areedboathistory.htm

Grzegorz

How are the papyrus boats of South America rigged ?

 

[Mr Efficiency]

Those reed boats are a testament to human ingenuity. And even a thing of beauty !

 

[messabout]

This is the most fun, and distracted, thread in a long time.

Some of you are hammering poor Tansl again. What the hell, he is from Spain and probably knows some Spanish words, maybe even their origins. He is a good sport about all this stuff, not only in this thread but in others as well.

As for Balsa, I have cleaned out more than a few saturated balsa cores of boats of various descriptions. It is a most appropriate material for the model airplanes that I have built in the long gone past, no matter the origin of the word.

 

[TANSL]

@messabout, I do not want to derive this thread towards trajectories different from those foreseen by the OP. If it were not for that, I would appreciate your words in my defense, but no, I'm not going to do it. What I can not resist explaining is that, indeed, I know Spanish better than some members of this forum and I do not need to ask Google to learn it.
Going back to the original questions, could someone answer them, please? I do not know the answer, if I knew it, I would have written it.

 

[Barry]

So really this is just a co-incidence, that the names are the same ? I am guessing there may be other such examples, but can't think of one immediately.

• agape – with mouth open OR love

• bass – type of fish OR low, deep voice

• bat - piece of sports equipment OR an animal

• bow – type of knot OR to incline or a weapon

• down – a lower place OR soft fluff on a bird

• entrance – the way in OR to delight

• evening – smoothing out OR after sunset

• fine – of good quality OR a levy

• learned – past tense of learn OR knowledgeable

• minute – tiny OR unit of time

• moped – was gloomy OR motorcyle

• number – more numb OR numerical value

• row – line OR argument OR propel a boat

• sewer – drain OR person who sews

• wave – move the hand in greeting OR sea water coming into shore

• wound – past tense of wind OR to injure or twisted

Homographs

 

[Angélique]

Thanks Barry, however to tack away a bit from linguistics, I like to bring to your all attention that the OP yesterday has enlarged post #1 with some newly attached pictures, so below I'll quote post #1 and it's questions incl. the recently added pics....

Hi,

I am interested in ancient rafts from South America (before the conquest). I found some photos from the late 19th century. I hope that in such a professional group there will be someone who will help in answering the following questions:

1. What type of sails was used? This is not a symmetrical square sail used in reconstructions (Kon-Tiki and others). I understand that it is an asymmetrical sails, balanced lug? Must yard be moved during gybe? A flexible yard creating an elliptical head and tightening the luff, creating a sail like the tip of the wing?

2. What is the purpose of the spar from the stern to the luff with ropes?

3. What is the course of the yacht relative to the wind? Less than 90 degrees?

Best reg.

Grzegorz

 

[troy2000]

I hesitate to speak up in the presence of so many who know more about sails than I do. But no one has addressed one of the OP's questions...

I assume the spar to the luff supported it when they were beating into the wind. I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that Vikings used a spar in a similar way, to support the leading edge of their square sails when sailing close-hauled.

add: I found this mention of such a spar on Viking boats, although it says they were used to hold a corner of the sail. I'll keep looking...

"The stories talk about a beiti-áss (cruising pole), a spar used to hold one corner of the sail further forward, allowing the ship to sail closer to the wind. Nothing has been found in any of the Viking ship wrecks that can be identified as a beiti-áss, but some ships have notched timbers that are thought to have held one end of the beiti-áss when it was set. Chapter 46 of Ynglinga saga says that King Eysteinn sat at the rudder of his ship when another ship sailed close by. There were some swells, and the beiti-áss of the other ship knocked the king overboard, and that was his death."

Hurstwic: Viking Ships http://hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/norse_ships.htm

 

[Angélique]

Thanks Troy,

Below from Troy's info....

Reading La Amon's Brut: Approaches and Explorations

‘‘ For La3amon, or Lawman (both forms are used), a parish priest living on the Welsh March c.1200, the criteria of language, race and territory all provided ways of defining the nation state, which is why his Brut commands a diverse readership to-day. . . . . . ’’

below a snippet from page 119...

Wooden Boat Forum has a related thread with the beiti-áss spar...

Lapstraking a Viking longboat, Bolger design 572 - (Bolger design #572, a Viking longboat replica which was published in BWAOM)

In the above not Bolger related video they're using a bowline attached to the windward luff instead of the / 'beiti-áss' / 'betas' / 'lof' / 'loof' / 'foregirt' / 'vargord' / luff spar, see the discussion about it in the linked thread, it's good shown from 2:43 to 2:49 in the video, which also came from the linked Wooden Boat Forum thread.

from post #22 of the linked thread...

In his '103 Sailing Rigs', Bolger quotes sources which call it 'beitass', 'foregirt' and 'vargord'. Etymology is fun!

Makes me think of a 'spinnaker pole', actually.

 

[rgbujan]

Thanks Troy,

Unfortunately a beiti-áss "was used to hold one corner of the sail further forward", allowing the ship to sail closer to the wind". And not so high if "the beiti-áss of the other ship knocked the king overboard".
But on the page whose address you showed I found very interesting drawing:

Grzegorz

I hesitate to speak up in the presence of so many who know more about sails than I do. But no one has addressed one of the OP's questions...

I assume the spar to the luff supported it when they were beating into the wind. I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that Vikings used a spar in a similar way, to support the leading edge of their square sails when sailing close-hauled.

add: I found this mention of such a spar on Viking boats, although it says they were used to hold a corner of the sail. I'll keep looking...

"The stories talk about a beiti-áss (cruising pole), a spar used to hold one corner of the sail further forward, allowing the ship to sail closer to the wind. Nothing has been found in any of the Viking ship wrecks that can be identified as a beiti-áss, but some ships have notched timbers that are thought to have held one end of the beiti-áss when it was set. Chapter 46 of Ynglinga saga says that King Eysteinn sat at the rudder of his ship when another ship sailed close by. There were some swells, and the beiti-áss of the other ship knocked the king overboard, and that was his death."

Hurstwic: Viking Ships http://hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/norse_ships.htm

 

[rgbujan]

Thanks Angelique,

On Lapstraking a Viking longboat, bolger design 572 http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?127667-Lapstraking-a-Viking-longboat-bolger-design-572&p=2905768#post2905768 post #10 lagspiller wrote:

...The leading edge of a square sail is fastened to the 'gunnel', usually simply on a pin with an eye, stuck through a hole in the 'gunnel'. That is moved from side to side on each tack. The pin sits loosely in the hole - so it is easily switched over by the bowman. There is no luff boom pole. Such a thing would certainly be very detrimental to the upwind ability of the rig as the leading edge of the sail could not be pulled tight. A square sail is always sailed loose footed.

A square rig sails quite well upwind - not much different than a gaff boat. I saw some youtube footage years ago where one of the northern norway boats was sailing a measured course against a colin archer and pointed higher without losing ground. Requires more crew and some skill to manage a tack into the wind, though. The other way round is easier and safer in a square rig... 'kuvending' or literally cow-turn. Cool history to the term. It was noticed that cows will generally turn the 'long way around' to avoid getting wind directly in the face.
It is safer to go about with a kuvending in a square rig because in a wind cast the sail can be released to blow away from the mast - depowering it. There is no way to do that with a square rig boom...

Grzegorz