It is too soon to judge foiling cruising -due to unrelated business problems -but it is not the waiting list situation that the little race foilers have from the start.
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A future sailboat ?
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It is too soon to judge foiling cruising -due to unrelated business problems -but it is not the waiting list situation that the little race foilers have from the start.
CT249
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Extended cruising range is a good thing for some people as you say, but as noted earlier it's not an issue for many of us so therefore foiling isn't in our cruising future, and therefore it is not "the future" - it's just one of many futures. Personally i find my weeked cruising range has no relationship to peak boatspeed; it's related to how enjoyable the return trip will be if the conditions are bad (ie if we have to motor in a dead calm or beat back in 20 knots) and foiling isn't practical in those conditions. And even if we could use our extended cruising range for "2 to three weeks and a few long weekends" would it be worth it if we had a boat that wasn't practical for the rest of the time?
Whether foiling will extend cruising range significantly is another thing, isn't it? Foiling doesn't turn a 4-5 knot boat into a 20 knot boat. It turns something that is already the fastest boat of its type into something even faster. Moths were already the fastest (for their size) and one of the most influential dinghies years ago, and they were made completely of carbon, weighed just 26kg and could beat 505s and Flying Dutchmen even before they started foiling. The A Class was full carbon with a 30' wing mast and the world's fastest singlehander even before it started foiling. The Gunboat G4 wasn't a 4-5 knot boat or most people's idea of a cruiser, it was a carbon ultra-light cat with minimalist interior fittings and an interior that was less usable than some 40 foot racing tris in many ways. It had no standing headroom in the saloon or head, no private double berth, no access from the saloon to the single private berths without going outside, and the galley was in the cockpit - hardly your typical 40' cruiser.
None of those boats is anything like most people's idea of a cruiser (or daysailer in the case of the Moth and A), and once you start making them into what most people call a cruiser surely you'll start to run into problems with getting them to foil properly and regularly, just as you do with the foiling Laser you used as an example.
And don't the examples you give show that speed is all comparative and not very important? By the standards of many people, the "light" Raven is heavy, old and quite slow - there are kids boats (like the 29er and 13' Skiff) that could go faster in a good breeze. By the standards of many people, the Hobie 18 is heavy, old and slow. They are both cool boats and if you enjoy them it's great, but the fact that you and lots of other people can enjoy boats that are (by some standards) heavy and slow shows that pure performance isn't that important. If pure unadulterated speed was what counted, you wouldn't have had fun with the Raven or the 18, but you did. Some of us sail things that can do over 30 knots easily, but we don't find that any more fun than going 5 knots on something else.
While sailing is concentrating on foilers as "the future" and the sport is shrinking, other sports and pastimes are concentrating on simpler, cheaper and slower pleasures and they are growing. We seem to have almost completely lost sight of the simple side of sailing.
I donot expect cruising foiling kite boats to be next weeks fad
or even next years
it will take years of development on lots of different bits
then more to get the bits to work together
and no at 66 I have learned to let others build boats
so I offer ideas and history
or even next years
it will take years of development on lots of different bits
then more to get the bits to work together
and no at 66 I have learned to let others build boats
so I offer ideas and history
Hi CT249
I do like your mature thinking and your arguments are real.
It is big fun to predict the future and most of us will fail but never mind.
One thing I do know that UNIVERSAL is the feature which counts.
Computer is a universal (our first universal machine)
iPhone is universal (as based on wearable computer)
3D printing is very universal ( technology of the future – can build anything imaginable)
Drones are highly universal (from post-delivery to people personal transport) – emerging technology for the future)
Car is a universal vehicle type (on land and on Mars)
My boat proposal is kind of universal ( with precision adjustable wing with distributed ballast weight – computer controlled)
The proposed wing and ballasting systems apply to monohull and catamaran or trimaran as well.
There was a comment that wings are not giving more compared to soft sails which is kind of comparing things in wrong state.
A single, stiff wing, having predetermined shape, is not good at all.
However, a wing which can adapt to each change of wind speed and direction is quite another “animal”.
We, people, can keep the balance (standing up) by moving parts of our bodies so is my boat proposal. We do have also a big redundancy in such balancing by moving head, arms, legs, hips () ….
By slicing the ballast it gets easy to correct the boat position and the redundancy is there as well.
Being safe end efficient in exploring the nature is the pleasure of sailing for me - not necessary going fast.
Electronics is now safe except for systems connected to internet……
I do like your mature thinking and your arguments are real.
It is big fun to predict the future and most of us will fail but never mind.
One thing I do know that UNIVERSAL is the feature which counts.
Computer is a universal (our first universal machine)
iPhone is universal (as based on wearable computer)
3D printing is very universal ( technology of the future – can build anything imaginable)
Drones are highly universal (from post-delivery to people personal transport) – emerging technology for the future)
Car is a universal vehicle type (on land and on Mars)
My boat proposal is kind of universal ( with precision adjustable wing with distributed ballast weight – computer controlled)
The proposed wing and ballasting systems apply to monohull and catamaran or trimaran as well.
There was a comment that wings are not giving more compared to soft sails which is kind of comparing things in wrong state.
A single, stiff wing, having predetermined shape, is not good at all.
However, a wing which can adapt to each change of wind speed and direction is quite another “animal”.
We, people, can keep the balance (standing up) by moving parts of our bodies so is my boat proposal. We do have also a big redundancy in such balancing by moving head, arms, legs, hips () ….
By slicing the ballast it gets easy to correct the boat position and the redundancy is there as well.
Being safe end efficient in exploring the nature is the pleasure of sailing for me - not necessary going fast.
Electronics is now safe except for systems connected to internet……
sharpii2
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I personally don't believe there is any single "future" sailboat.
The one you have in mind may well come into existence. It may even get some wide spread acceptance (by really affluent people, who can afford all its bells and whistles, the Iphone crowd).
But I think the one-type-fits-all idea is a profoundly 20th century one.
Pleasure sailboats of this century are likely to be a highly diverse lot. There will be the screechingly high performance "sport boat" types, along with multihulls of various performance levels. There will probably even be a few hydrofoiling types, which will stand the test of time. But the humble keel boat, with its poky 3-8 knot sailing speeds (with its excellent carrying capacity), will stick around too. Along with probably dozens of one-design racing dinghies.
What does seem to be making a lasting appearance, this century, are humble day sailing types, suitable for beach cruising, which are often built only from plans, by their owners, if not designed by them as well.
These boats can be surprisingly safe, even under not-so-skilled hands, as they are often carefully designed to be easily self-rescued. with these boats, as the skill level increases, so to do the cruising ambitions. These types often sport "traditional" sail plans, because they can make do with less expensive spars and sail material.
Unlike the other types I have mentioned, these boats are often much less expensive to acquire and maintain. This type is the only one I'm likely to ever afford, so I love designing them.
If a huge "carbon tax" is ever imposed (here in the States), motor sailors may make a huge splash, as people struggle to find less expensive ways to have fun on the water.
Also, over-fishing may bring about regulations (on top of a carbon tax) which may limit the amount of fuel commercial fishing vessels can carry. This may cause them to sport at least vestigial sailing rigs.
The one you have in mind may well come into existence. It may even get some wide spread acceptance (by really affluent people, who can afford all its bells and whistles, the Iphone crowd).
But I think the one-type-fits-all idea is a profoundly 20th century one.
Pleasure sailboats of this century are likely to be a highly diverse lot. There will be the screechingly high performance "sport boat" types, along with multihulls of various performance levels. There will probably even be a few hydrofoiling types, which will stand the test of time. But the humble keel boat, with its poky 3-8 knot sailing speeds (with its excellent carrying capacity), will stick around too. Along with probably dozens of one-design racing dinghies.
What does seem to be making a lasting appearance, this century, are humble day sailing types, suitable for beach cruising, which are often built only from plans, by their owners, if not designed by them as well.
These boats can be surprisingly safe, even under not-so-skilled hands, as they are often carefully designed to be easily self-rescued. with these boats, as the skill level increases, so to do the cruising ambitions. These types often sport "traditional" sail plans, because they can make do with less expensive spars and sail material.
Unlike the other types I have mentioned, these boats are often much less expensive to acquire and maintain. This type is the only one I'm likely to ever afford, so I love designing them.
If a huge "carbon tax" is ever imposed (here in the States), motor sailors may make a huge splash, as people struggle to find less expensive ways to have fun on the water.
Also, over-fishing may bring about regulations (on top of a carbon tax) which may limit the amount of fuel commercial fishing vessels can carry. This may cause them to sport at least vestigial sailing rigs.
The various recomendations for the boat of the future, miss one thing, A sailing boat is designed for it's use.
For instance, kites, no good where I sail as it will tangle in the trees, and how do you get it under a bridge.
Foils , you are tacking every 30 seconds for up to 6 hours, do you think you can keep it on the plane let alone the foils?
Canting keels, you are tacking every 30 seconds for up to 6 hours, do you think you can keep manually moving the keel for that long?
Deep bulb keels , interesting when the water may be only 3ft deep.
The above are an extreme example of limits that may be placed on boat design.
But Even boats for the open sea, they are designed for the local conditions OR cross ocean sailing.
Also many boats are designed not as a technological example, but include changes for comfort / class rules / because the owner wants something looking historical.
For instance, kites, no good where I sail as it will tangle in the trees, and how do you get it under a bridge.
Foils , you are tacking every 30 seconds for up to 6 hours, do you think you can keep it on the plane let alone the foils?
Canting keels, you are tacking every 30 seconds for up to 6 hours, do you think you can keep manually moving the keel for that long?
Deep bulb keels , interesting when the water may be only 3ft deep.
The above are an extreme example of limits that may be placed on boat design.
But Even boats for the open sea, they are designed for the local conditions OR cross ocean sailing.
Also many boats are designed not as a technological example, but include changes for comfort / class rules / because the owner wants something looking historical.
brian eiland
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WOW, I'm really impressed with the deep and detail you have put into this 'project' of yours....impressive.
I think you need to find work with those military types that want to develop autonomous sailing ships.
I don't think you are going to sell the sailing public on these ideas.
Now perhaps you could develop a simple automated manner to operate this alternative square rig set up:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/square-rig-variation-30031-4.html#post776979
Hi gggGuest
This is the point of importance:
what to do with the wings after sail (on a buoy, anchor or harbor) and during winter time (storage).
I am not sure what do you meant with “as storage” so I wrote some clarification above – sorry!
Right now I do see only one viable solution to that problem and it is mentioned on my site. (check the sketch on my site)
The wings have to be laid down [9] when not in use - any other solution in a sight?
And please do not be confuse that at this stage there is no space for sailors as these are just conceptual sketches but solutions exist. Reefing is fast [5] and de-powering at any apparent wind direction is easy. Not mentioning that this boat is designed to go under bridges…..and keep one dry when drinking afternoon tea on deck - in case of heavy rain….
This is the point of importance:
what to do with the wings after sail (on a buoy, anchor or harbor) and during winter time (storage).
I am not sure what do you meant with “as storage” so I wrote some clarification above – sorry!
Right now I do see only one viable solution to that problem and it is mentioned on my site. (check the sketch on my site)
The wings have to be laid down [9] when not in use - any other solution in a sight?
And please do not be confuse that at this stage there is no space for sailors as these are just conceptual sketches but solutions exist. Reefing is fast [5] and de-powering at any apparent wind direction is easy. Not mentioning that this boat is designed to go under bridges…..and keep one dry when drinking afternoon tea on deck - in case of heavy rain….
Hi sharpii2
I do agree with you totally – no any single ”future” sailboat.
It is not my intention either – but it will be some good improvements migrating to existing boats.
The wings are coming, we want or not ,as always “more efficient” wins in the long term.
We go back 200 years and compare - the improvements are obvious.
The wing I proposed is not the only one today, but is very efficient from the aerodynamical point of view, therefore, can be used on other boat/vehicle types – especially cats.
The ballast system is meant for monohull but as a device for power generation might be used on cat or tri as well.
It is nothing wrong with “simple and traditional” as it is well proved and by that reasonably safe but development/improvement is nothing one can stop as it is nature of all living.
With my design, I try to make visible what is possible and prove it viable by testing.
Thanks for your input!
I do agree with you totally – no any single ”future” sailboat.
It is not my intention either – but it will be some good improvements migrating to existing boats.
The wings are coming, we want or not ,as always “more efficient” wins in the long term.
We go back 200 years and compare - the improvements are obvious.
The wing I proposed is not the only one today, but is very efficient from the aerodynamical point of view, therefore, can be used on other boat/vehicle types – especially cats.
The ballast system is meant for monohull but as a device for power generation might be used on cat or tri as well.
It is nothing wrong with “simple and traditional” as it is well proved and by that reasonably safe but development/improvement is nothing one can stop as it is nature of all living.
With my design, I try to make visible what is possible and prove it viable by testing.
Thanks for your input!
Hi Q o
Nice input from you – agree.
So, what we want is:
- low draft
- not to speedy
- go easily under bridges
- not a too much physical effort from the crew
- safe
- different variants for specific use
- no canting keel
- no foils
I am very close with my design to fulfill above spec but much work still has to be done.
Thank you!
Nice input from you – agree.
So, what we want is:
- low draft
- not to speedy
- go easily under bridges
- not a too much physical effort from the crew
- safe
- different variants for specific use
- no canting keel
- no foils
I am very close with my design to fulfill above spec but much work still has to be done.
Thank you!
Hi CT249
Hallo, where I can find the criticism from you?
You were very helpful in summarising the state of the art.
I am sure that you do understand very well all this we are talking about and it was good that the discussion turns to not only touch my boat design proposition but much more.
Thanks again!
Hallo, where I can find the criticism from you?
You were very helpful in summarising the state of the art.
I am sure that you do understand very well all this we are talking about and it was good that the discussion turns to not only touch my boat design proposition but much more.
Thanks again!
Hello Brian Eiland
You have an interesting point of view but I am not selling the ideas as they are free for anybody to use and I am not going to produce any boats for other than myself.
Still I do think that the sailing technology of today is going in direction brutal POWER instead of real technical advances.
Thanks for your input!
You have an interesting point of view but I am not selling the ideas as they are free for anybody to use and I am not going to produce any boats for other than myself.
Still I do think that the sailing technology of today is going in direction brutal POWER instead of real technical advances.
Thanks for your input!
I actually want all the speed I can get out of my boat I wish to win races!! but it is designed for a specific set of circumstances. I would not pretend my boat would be safe to cross an ocean.
I originally set a maximum length or 20 foot, which was later reduced to 18ft to fit inside a container on it's trailer. And now I'm reducing it to 16ft to meet a set of class rules I wish to sail in. (provision was made for that.)
In particular I wish to compete in the 3 Rivers Race in It, http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/3-rivers-race-55795.html
It's only a once a year event, but it is something special, to get round the course reliably, you need a reasonable speed to be in the top half of the fleet, you need to do the course in two tides.
Too slow, the tide gets you and you'll be lucky to finish in 4 tides.
But what I was trying to get others to recognise is that a great many of us have limits we are forced to obay in boat design, in body or sailing conditions. We all aren't in open Sea or Huge lakes and even if we are, we may have other limits due to the Harbour or our physical body.
I suspect if you are an inland sailor in Sweden, you will have many of the limits I have, I love the long overhangs and slim designs of your Swedish traditional yachts but they just wouldn't work for my purposes.
I originally set a maximum length or 20 foot, which was later reduced to 18ft to fit inside a container on it's trailer. And now I'm reducing it to 16ft to meet a set of class rules I wish to sail in. (provision was made for that.)
In particular I wish to compete in the 3 Rivers Race in It, http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/3-rivers-race-55795.html
It's only a once a year event, but it is something special, to get round the course reliably, you need a reasonable speed to be in the top half of the fleet, you need to do the course in two tides.
Too slow, the tide gets you and you'll be lucky to finish in 4 tides.
But what I was trying to get others to recognise is that a great many of us have limits we are forced to obay in boat design, in body or sailing conditions. We all aren't in open Sea or Huge lakes and even if we are, we may have other limits due to the Harbour or our physical body.
I suspect if you are an inland sailor in Sweden, you will have many of the limits I have, I love the long overhangs and slim designs of your Swedish traditional yachts but they just wouldn't work for my purposes.
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