thanks Y I do tend to like a bit of 'nose down' effect in my lines. I think its a sub-concious reflection of what I do with the Isocats, which of course is a concious reflection of what they do with the offshore race cats. Mr Nurbs always deserves some credit for sheer lines, I usually let him do as much of the work as possible. He's an interesting guy that Mr Nurbs, the less information you give him, the better he behaves. cheers David Boyne